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2 area, she has said, it is per se inconsistent with
3 those -- with the policies that protect significant
4 maritime-industrial areas. That is not the case.
5 As is cited in the record on page 3667,
6 which contains this area, Policy 2 of the Waterfront
7 Revitalization Program clearly states, and I'm
8 paraphrasing here: Nonwater-dependent industrial
9 and commercial uses may be considered appropriate
10 in significant maritime-industrial areas so long as
11 shore-front infrastructure is maintained to permit
12 subsequent water-dependent use.
13 Here, there will certainly be subsequent
14 waterfront use; there will be over a thousand linear
15 feet of shore front maintained and there will be new
16 water-dependent uses brought in, such as a ferry
17 service --
18 THE COURT: Be careful with that ferry
19 service. That ferry service, from my understanding,
20 is just to help people to get to Ikea on the
21 weekends, and back. That's not significant ferry
22 service. Let's not overstate it.
23 MR. GREENE: It is a new use.
24 There is also reconstructed piers for
25 berthing barges and tugboats, and this is a very
26 important use in the city right now. Barging [sic]
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2 these large vessels, also, like I said, this will
3 repair infrastructure that is literally falling
4 apart. And the Waterfront Revitalization Program
5 looks favorably on projects that are going to repair
6 infrastructure in these dilapidated industrial areas.
7 THE COURT: But are you creating a
8 situation where it can no longer be industrial
9 development, by putting in this commercial store,
10 which is one of the original parts of the plan?
11 MR. GREENE: Well, as I stated before,
12 commercial development is not per se inappropriate
13 in significant maritime-industrial areas. In fact,
14 it can be entirely appropriate, so long as the shore
15 front is maintained for future water-dependent use,
16 and here that is the case.
17 MR. CHERNIAK: In order to run the ferry
18 service, regular ferry service daily, let's say, for
19 everyone, would they be able to use the landing docks
20 there?
21 THE COURT: Yeah? Go ahead.
22 MR. GREENE: Please.
23 MS. BINDER: May I?
24 THE COURT: Yeah, go ahead.
25 MS. BINDER: Are you asking, physically?
26 I mean, I understand --
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2 MR. CHERNIAK: Yeah.
3 MS. BINDER: Could they create a license
4 agreement, perhaps, with Ikea to be able to use its
5 piers? I really don't know the answer to that.
6 MR. CHERNIAK: What I'm asking, as a
7 practical matter, is, will the piers be limited to
8 Ikea's use?
9 THE COURT: Right now the plan is, "yes";
10 right?
11 MS. BINDER: No.
12 May I jump in?
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 MS. BINDER: Actually, the answer to that
15 is "no," because Pier 4 is going to be maintained
16 and available for local barge and repair operations,
17 non-Ikea related. So if you're asking if there are
18 users other than Ikea users and customers, the answer
19 is "yes."
20 MR. CHERNIAK: That's the one that's going
21 to be separated from the land; correct?
22 MS. BINDER: No, no.
23 THE COURT: It's actually -- it's Pier 4.
24 MR. CHERNIAK: Oh, okay.
25 MS. BINDER: It's part of the project site
26 that is --
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2 THE COURT: She's (indicating) shaking her
3 head no.
4 You're saying, "no," it's not? Go ahead.
5 MS. BRYSON: I hate to contradict you,
6 but I just went to the meeting on Wednesday and I do
7 believe it was said there that Pier 4 is the ferry
8 pier and it will be continued to be connected to the
9 land, and the pier [sic] at which the barges are
10 going to dock are cut off, and I believe there's 1
11 and 2 and -- I don't remember, exactly, the numbers
12 but two of them are going to be demolished and two of
13 them are going to be cut off and have barges docked
14 on them.
15 THE COURT: Go ahead.
16 MS. BINDER: While piers 1 and 2 will be
17 cut off at a portion, Pier 4 will be made available
18 for local barging operations; non-Ikea, local barging
19 operations.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MS. BINDER: Does that answer your
22 question?
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 Okay, let him continue. Thank you.
25 MR. GREENE: This is clearly consistent.
26 The legal standard in making a waterfront consistency
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2 determination is a "rational basis." There is case
3 law cited in the papers that clearly shows this.
4 As this project conforms with the 197-A
5 Program and the Waterfront Revitalization Program,
6 it was clearly developed in accordance with a
7 comprehensive plan for Red Hook. This strongly
8 rebuts petitioners' argument that this constitutes
9 some sort of spot zoning.
10 THE COURT: Don't go there, with the
11 "spot zoning." I don't need you to address that
12 issue. That's not an issue I'm concerned about.
13 But you're not addressing the fact
14 that you failed to consider volume of traffic and,
15 therefore, the neighborhood-character impact.
16 MR. GREENE: I'll go right to that point,
17 your Honor. I apologize.
18 THE COURT: Please do.
19 MR. GREENE: Neighborhood character --
20 THE COURT: By the way, I don't think this
21 is spot zoning, but go ahead.
22 MR. GREENE: Neighborhood character, under
23 SEQRA, is to look at a compilation of factors, not
24 just one factor; and moreover, it is undoubtedly the
25 most subjective area of review that -- subjective
26 area of potentially significant impact --
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2 THE COURT: But the bottom line is,
3 did you consider it or not?
4 MR. GREENE: We did consider it, your
5 Honor. We took a hard look at it.
6 THE COURT: Did you consider volume?
7 MR. GREENE: We considered traffic and we
8 also considered --
9 THE COURT: Did you consider volume?
10 MR. GREENE: We considered the mitigation
11 measures that were taken --
12 We considered volume, yes. We considered
13 the mitigation measures that were taken, substantial
14 mitigation measures that exceed transportation-
15 engineering standard, and we're allowed to do that
16 under the SEQRA Technical Manual.
17 THE COURT: Do we have it anywhere in the
18 papers?
19 MR. GREENE: Record cite 902, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: What's that; record?
21 MR. GREENE: Yes.
22 THE COURT: 902.
23 MR. GREENE: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Okay, record.
25 Says you talked about the volume.
26 MR. GREENE: Yes. We talked about the
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2 volume, yes.
3 THE COURT: Okay, okay. Just checking.
4 Continue.
5 MR. GREENE: Therefore, petitioners'
6 argument that an increase of traffic is a per se
7 impact on neighborhood character is simply not true.
8 Neighborhood character was given its own
9 chapter in the EIS; Chapter 9. It was thoroughly
10 examined, all the relevant factors, in accordance
11 with the SEQRA Technical Manual.
12 And there was also an extensive
13 chapter devoted to traffic movements, where there
14 were extensive mitigation measures proposed, an
15 over-two-mile study area for this project -- around
16 this project site -- including the entire Red Hook
17 peninsula and areas of Flatbush --
18 THE COURT: But I don't remember
19 reading -- I have to tell you, I don't remember
20 seeing anything about the Gowanus and the highway;
21 just the local streets. I may have missed it, so
22 please let me know.
23 MR. GREENE: Well, your Honor, I can cite
24 you to the record right here.
25 THE COURT: Go ahead.
26 MR. GREENE: It's record cite --
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2 THE COURT: Go ahead.
3 MR. GREENE: -- 880, 910 --
4 THE COURT: 880, 910. Go ahead.
5 MR. GREENE: -- through -11.
6 THE COURT: Go ahead.
7 MR. GREENE: 1256 through 1257.
8 THE COURT: I missed it, then.
9 Okay, and that deals directly with the
10 Gowanus and other highways?
11 MR. GREENE: Yes, it addresses the Gowanus
12 and other highways.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. GREENE: Also, the areas that were
15 examined, the on- and off-ramps, the areas that are
16 most likely to experience traffic impacts. And that
17 is a critical understanding here. This is where
18 traffic backs up. This is where you want to look,
19 and a hard look was taken at the -- several -- the
20 closest and next-closest intersections to these two
21 expressways.
22 THE COURT: And how is that going to be
23 affected by the new project, the rebuilding of the
24 Gowanus?
25 MR. GREENE: The rebuilding of the Gowanus
26 is a project that is taking place far into the
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2 future.
3 THE COURT: How far?
4 MR. GREENE: I believe Miss Binder will
5 correct me if I'm wrong. It is going to be 2012,
6 I believe, is the estimated date for it.
7 MS. BINDER: That's correct.
8 MR. GREENE: And I think the critical
9 thing here, when you're addressing -- and I believe
10 we're addressing the build-year issue right now --
11 is that environmental review, pursuant to the Jackson
12 case, is not meant to be perpetual. You -- a
13 rational projection was chosen for the date of this
14 project.
15 As Miss Bryson concedes, the traffic
16 study was increased to cover other areas, such as
17 the passenger ship terminal, the Fairway supermarket,
18 and a truck study done by New York City Department of
19 Transportation. This was expanded.
20 You have to pick a rational date, and this
21 is a rational date. It is still the date it's moving
22 forward.
23 So --
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 Do you have anything else you want to ask
26 him? No?
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2 Forgive me for interrupting. Let me get
3 Miss Binder up.
4 MR. GREENE: Certainly, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Do you have anything you want
6 to add to all of this? Go ahead.
7 MS. BINDER: I just want to say, your
8 Honor, and I will be brief, this is not the Jets
9 stadium. This is a project that has gone through --
10 it has been an extraordinary project.
11 To think that the community board voted
12 favorably for this project, the borough president
13 did, the City Council did --
14 THE COURT: What she pointed out is on the
15 community board was -- what? -- one or two Red Hook
16 residents and the rest were outside of Red Hook?
17 So, you know, if you have people outside, they don't
18 have the same interests as the people inside.
19 MS. BINDER: But, your Honor, if I may --
20 THE COURT: Go ahead.
21 MS. BINDER: -- seventy percent of the Red
22 Hook residents are in favor of this project. So that
23 we sit here today talking about --
24 THE COURT: Be careful with that. I mean,
25 how do you know that? Did you go to every door of
26 every resident in Red Hook?
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2 MS. BINDER: No, but we do have in our
3 submission the Red Hook Association's petitions that
4 are about this (indicating) thick.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MS. BINDER: And they testified at every
7 single public hearing. And we probably had, easily,
8 80 presentations throughout Brooklyn and in the Red
9 Hook community. And they were consistently not just
10 there; they were vocally there.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 MS. BINDER: So this is not the Jets
13 stadium.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MS. BINDER: And the reason this is
16 not the Jets stadium, and it is unprecedented --
17 the chair of Community Board 6 said this is
18 unprecedented; the chair of the land-use City Council
19 [sic] said this is unprecedented -- because Ikea is
20 an extraordinary company. It has done here what
21 nobody else has done. There are other big-box
22 developments in the city and Brooklyn; you see Home
23 Depot, you see Costco, you see Lowe's. Nobody has
24 done what Ikea has done, and I'll put the ferry
25 service aside.
26 But let's talk about this 6.3-acre
ALAN F. BOWIN, CSR, RMR, CRR
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